What are your thoughts on Bishop Martino's letter ... I have read much about this letter ... I am a Catholic ... although I was not present in the pew listening to the sermon at the pulpit.
I am one who thinks that this is being blown out of proportion ... I seem to recall Bishop Timlin being "guilty" of the same offenses. I actually sat through those sermons ... and I remember going to John Kerry Rallies ... where there were members of the clergy with protersters in tow ... (pro-lifers) were protesting ... and no big deal was made of this ... Now comes Bishop Martino not the most popular Bishop the Diocese has ever had ... he's a bit radical if you ask me ... bad rep with the teachers of the Diocese ... closing churches and schools all over the diocese ... and now he takes a stand on abortion ... are any of us really surprised about this? I for one am not ... and I do believe that Catholics will decide who they want to vote for ... and for some who are staunch Pro Lifers ... they will vote based on that ... but for those who are Pro Choice ... and yes there are Catholics who are pro choice ... they will look at all of the issues that are important to them and make their decision based on more than the abortion issue.
DD is ready to strip the Catholic Church of the Tax Exempt Status (with the exception of poster bitterpill who is getting a bit carried away with his/her posts)along with the City Data Forum calling for a boycott of the Roman Catholic religion. Is it just me ... or is this taking this issue to the extreme? I feel that ok ... they read a letter that says that Catholics should support a candidate that is pro life ... haven't they been doing that for years?
If we truly want a separation of Church and State ... why is it then allowable for the Pope to meet withthe President... How many times has the Pope (current and past) been invited to the White House? Do we think that they simply sipped tea and talked about the weather ... or did they discuss the church's doctrine as it relates to our society ... Did the Pope Denounce the happenings of 9/11 ... you bet he did ... has he come out against the war in Iraq ... yes he did ... did he discuss this with President Bush on his visit ... well somehow I don't think they discussed the weather... and if they did ... it was not the only thing that they discussed.
So now we want to choose when it's ok for religion and state affairs to become intermingled ... well that's not how it works ... it's one way or the other ... if you are saying that it is wrong for the Bishop to speak of the teachings of the church during mass in the church ... then you are expecting much more of your religion than is possible. And don't expect the Pope to be allowed into the White House again anytime soon
You listen and then make up your mind as to what it is you as a person wants from your government ... if your only issue is abortion ... then I guess it would be a clear choice for you ... if you have more issues ... which most of us do ... then you look at what is most important to you as a citizen of this great country ... and you exercise your free will ... and make the choice that you personally think is right! It's that simple ... just because the Bishop wrote a letter and it was read in Church ... does not mean that you cannot make up your own minds ... I will be voting for Obama ... and I'm Catholic ... and I do not feel that it makes me less of a catholic because of this choice I have made.
Can this topic be discussed in a civilized manner ... I think so ... you may not think that if you have read anything about it on the City-Data Forum or on DD ... but we are pretty much a civilized group here ... so what are your thoughts?
-- Edited by LusOnlyVoice at 11:52, 2008-10-06
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I want everyone to stop and think about one thing ... Joe Pilchesky is not a lawyer ... he's just a guy playing a lawyer on the internet. Please don't trust your legal needs to this man.
It's a tough topic to discuss, if only because, as you noted Lus, Bishop Martino isn't the most popular of spiritual leaders in the area, and you need to separate the man (Joseph Martino) from his office (Bishop of the Diocese of Scranton).
I respect Bishop Martino for having and expressing his convictions as a spiritual leader, but I do wonder why he seems to "cherry pick" some of these convictions. For example, he has said that he would not allow a pro-choice candidate to receive Communion, but yet he has no problem allowing pro-dealth penalty candidates that same priviledge. Case in point is Rick Santorum. Now you could argue that there is a very big difference between killing the unborn and executing a criminal, but that's not exactly how the church sees it.
While the vast majority of U.S. Catholics support capital punishment, Pope John Paul II has declared the Church's near total opposition to the death penalty. In his encyclical "Evangelium Vitae" (The Gospel of Life) issued March 25, 1995 after four years of consultations with the world's Roman Catholic bishops, John Paul II wrote that execution is only appropriate "in cases of absolute necessity, in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. Today, however, as a result of steady immprovement in the organization of the penal system, such cases are very rare, if not practically nonexistent." Until this encyclical, the death penalty was viewed as sometimes permissible as a means of protecting society.
As noted in the quote, the above is from "Evangelium Vitae".
So for me, the issue isn't that Bishop Martino stands in opposition to abortion, it's that he chooses to look the other way when it comes to other issues facing the Church. This crates at least the tacid appearance of support for candidates of one particular party. The same could be said for his opposition to the unionization of teachers in the Diocese: he cherry picks the Church teachings that support his position, and ignores or downplays the rest, all the while demanding complete and total obedience on the part of his flock.
Now I was raised a Catholic...I was an Altar Boy for over ten years, I attended Catholic high school and I was even the President of the Campus Catholic Student's group in college. However I don't currenlty consider myself an active member of the Church. For me, I've just seen too much hypocrisy of late. I know, as a Catholic, I need to view the Church not as Bishop Martino or (for example) de-frocked priest Albert Liberatore, but as a collection of the faithful. That's easier said than done though, for reasons such as...
I read the actions of Bishop Martino when it comes to his public pronouncements about pro-vs-anti choice and I hear the actions of a staunch partisan politician.
I read the actions of Bishop Martino when it comes the unionization of teachers and I hear the actions of someone who might as well be an executive working for Walmart.
I read the actions of Bishop Martino when it comes to school and parish closings, and I hear the actions of a corporate raider, hell bent of reducing corporate costs at all costs, refusing to even discuss how these actions with those most directly impacted.
In all of these examples I'm seeing Joseph Martino the man...a politician and a businessman...not a spiritual leader. That's probably more my issue than an issue for Joseph Martino. However that's also why my faith in the Catholic Church has been pretty severely dented. How can I follow someone who seems more interested in the exercise of his authority than anything else? I know that all leaders have to make tough decisions, but in my opinion a spiritual leader should be more than just a "my way or the highway" executive bully.
-- Edited by Agamemnon at 22:28, 2008-10-06
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Free Speech does't require a multi-paragrah disclaimer Mr. Pilchesky.
I really think that the point that I am trying to make here is this ... we cannot pick an choose as a society when it is ok for religion to intermingle with state affairs ... should we just say ... it is one way or the other ... no grey areas allowed? Or do we want religion when religion is on our side and agreeing with us. If you ask me the Catholic Church is not only about religion but is and has been for as long as I remember very political ...
Another point to ponder on this is the infamous Rev. Wright ... was our problem with the Rev. that he was involved heavily in Obamas campaign ... no it was not ... our issue with him was that we felt he was prejudicial towards white people ... but we had no problem with him pushing for Obama from his pulpit ... so if we are going to hold one religion to the rules should we not hold all religions to the rules? Maybe I'm not remembering it right but did we want to take away the tax free status of his church?
__________________
I want everyone to stop and think about one thing ... Joe Pilchesky is not a lawyer ... he's just a guy playing a lawyer on the internet. Please don't trust your legal needs to this man.