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PilcheskyDeceit True Freedom of Speech -> True Freedom of Speech ... Pilchesky denies Freedom of Speech -> Can anyone tell me if this is true .... I find it hard to believe!
Post Info TOPIC: Can anyone tell me if this is true .... I find it hard to believe!
LusOnlyVoice


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Can anyone tell me if this is true .... I find it hard to believe!
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EVIL PEOPLE
Posts: 13
Date: Feb 6 9:08 PM, 2009

SPOKE TO A POLICEMAN TODAY I WAS INFORMED THAT THEY DID NOT PAY INTO SOCIAL SECURITY OR MEDICARE BECAUSE FEDERAL LAW STATES THEY CAN'T AS UNIFORM ENPLOYEES. IF THAT IS THE CASE THEN WHEN THEIR 80 THEY STILL WILL NOT HAVE INSURANCE OR CAN'T GET IT BECAUSE THEY DO NOT PAY INTO MEDICARE SO YOU WILL HAVE TO WORK FOR THE DEPT UNTIL YOU DIE AND I MEAN DON'T GET SICK AND LINGER ON, JUST DIE ,BECAUSE THE CITY WILL SAY YOU CAN'T PERFORM THE JOB, RETIRE YOU AND YOU WILL NOT HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE NO SOCIAL SECURITY NO MEDICARE JUST DIE!!!!!!!!!!! I WONDER IF THE JUDGES HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE AND MEDICARE AFTER THEY RETIRE


I find this hard to believe ... does anyone know if this is true?

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Agamemnon


DD: Where logic & proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

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Can anyone tell me if this is true .... I find it hard to believe!
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Lus,

I don't know the answer off the top of my head, but it's more complicated than the DD poster would lead you to believe (I know, not a shock there). Here's a link to the IRS website that deals with this issue.

http://www.irs.gov/govt/fslg/article/0,,id=182888,00.html

This will help as well...

http://www.ssa.gov/slge/sect_218_agree.htm


I'll try and go through it later today.




-- Edited by Agamemnon at 11:07, 2009-02-08

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sharilewis


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Lus,
In the 1980's during Reagan's rein of terror he changed the social security laws.
Since the inception of 401k's or in the uniformed municipal worker's case 457b's, those savings plans allowed a little more than the maximum yearly savings allowed under a typical 401k.
Because of that, uniformed employees became exempt under social security. By law, police and firemen could not contribute to social security and thus were exempt to collect it. If a worker had his or her quarters in before they were hired, they could still collect SS. Or if they worked a part time job during their career and achieved their quarters that way, they could collect. Except, the Reagan law cut their money by 60%. So if they have their quarters, they can only collect 40% of what others can.
On medicare, also at the same time as the SS law changes, anyone hired after 87 or 88 I believe started paying into medicare. Anyone before that time never paid into the medicare portion and thus cannot qualify for medicare. I'm not sure how many police officers are in that situation (and firemen too) but it's real.
If they retire now they have no healthcare benefits, nor medicare coverage if they didn't work for ten years prior or during their employ with the city.
One more thing, if they were injured and found totally disabled, even those with their quarters cannot collect SS disability either, unless the quarters were directly prior to the time they were injured.
This is the reason why retiree health benefits were so important to them. But that's gone now. Hope this helps your inquiry.

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Agamemnon


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Shari...

You are somewhat correct in your characterization of a 457 plan, but that's besides the point. I did find what you posted though to be very informative, especially as it relates to Medicare. By the way, interesting that you even know what a 457 plan is if, as you've said, you are not a city employee. That's not what I would describe as common knowledge.

One question for you: while the uniform city employees are not eligible for Social Security Disability (as you noted), I believe that they are covered by the Pennsylvania Heart and Lung Act. How does that work? How do those benefits compare to Social Security disability?

Also, is the 457 Plan the only retirement benefit offered to city uniformed employees, or do they also participate in a defined benefit plan as well?

Without getting into a rant about Social Security, there are pluses and minuses to not participating in the system. The system works best for wage earners at the lower end of the scale, but even then it's not better than what someone could get by taking the money that would have gone into the system and investing it independently (assuming that the SS employer match were paid in the form of wages instead of going into the system). What's more, some of the benefits under Social Security...such as the death benefit...are so low as to be laughable. Also, if Social Security does become insolvent around 2030-2040, those not participating in the system will probably be (the only) winners. I'm not even going to touch the question of Medicare's financial stability...that's a true nightmare.

-- Edited by Agamemnon at 20:29, 2009-02-08

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sharilewis


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Ag,

I'm married to a city employee, remember? That's how it was explained to me when I asked.
The heart and lung benefits are only during an injury while still employed by the city. If the person is found to be unable to continue in their job, due to their injury, they are retired on a disablility pension and at that point heart and lung benefits stop and they are covered by comp for the specific injury.
In a nutshell, if someone is injured and retired because of the injury, they will receive a 50% pension (about 18 to 20,000) and comp coverage for the injury and comp benefits,but no healthcare. If they find employment that they can do, compensation benefits will be offset from that income. A new law came into effect a few years ago that limits comp benefits to, I believe, 5 years max. After that time period, the comp is cut off and they are left with just the pension.

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LusOnlyVoice


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Wow ... Thank you for that information Shari it was very helpful ... I have to take some time and try and processwhat I have learned today. It's still very early.

I have to say that I never in a million years would have thought this to be true.

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I want everyone to stop and think about one thing ... Joe Pilchesky is not a lawyer ... he's just a guy playing a lawyer on the internet.  Please don't trust your legal needs to this man.
LusOnlyVoice


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Shari, does your husband know how many people are effected or going to be effected by this?

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I want everyone to stop and think about one thing ... Joe Pilchesky is not a lawyer ... he's just a guy playing a lawyer on the internet.  Please don't trust your legal needs to this man.
Agamemnon


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Shari...

...thanks for the Heart & Lung Act information. Two follow-up questions:

  1. You didn't mention the taxability of that benefit...how is this benefit taxed...is it subject to federal/state/local income tax?
  2. Is there a limit to the duration of the benefit? For example, if a policeman receives a qualifying injury at age 35, can they receive a benefit under this program until normal retirement age?
Also, are you saying that the uniformed employeed DO have a defined benefit plan (you reference "pension")? This would be in addition to the 457 plan.

For a self-described spouse of a city employee, you know an awful lot about benefit packages.

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sharilewis


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Lus, you're welcome and he thinks about 20 to 30 people (both Police and Fire) are in this situation.

Ag, on taxability, that's exactly what the heart and lung benefit is. They continue to receive their normal pay tax free while out on the injury. Once they are disabled and leave or are forced out, that stops and comp and pension starts.
Yes the pension is separate from the 457b. It's only a savings plan though. It's deducted from his check at whatever amount we can afford and the city doesn't contribute anything to it. He doesn't know anyone who saves the maximum amount allowed (about 9000) since who could afford it. They already have about 4% taken out of their check for the pension. The city doesn't contribute to that either. It's all employee money. The city does have to pay some money each year because of past raiding of the plan where they lost huge amounts of money, but the pension in the perfect world was set up to be self sustaining using only employee money. I hope this is understandable since he (and I) aren't experts on it. But that's the gist of it.
On your 2nd question, are you speaking of the heart and lung benefit? If so, if a police officer, at any age is injured, they are put on heart and lung while they are being treated but as soon as they are back to work, it ends and if the can't go back to work and are found totally disabled, it ends at that point to.
Here's a link I found on the act. http://www.paheartandlung.com


edited for clarity ... Ha Ha ... just kidding (I have always wanted to write that!) I wanted to make the heart and lung link active.

-- Edited by LusOnlyVoice at 05:13, 2009-02-10

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sharilewis


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Ag,
One mess up, the tax free part is state and local only, not federal. That's still taken from their check.

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Agamemnon


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Shari...thanks for the clarity on H&L Act taxability...that's about what I suspected. Injured police & firemen should have a generous benefit.

As for your description of the defined benefit plan, no disrespect intended, but it sounds to me like you may be confusing the 457 with the DB. For example...

...DB plans with employee contributions are relatively rare in this day and age
...to the extent you have a defined benefit plan that even allows employee contributions, the limit is different than what you quoted
...it is possible that the employer no longer contributes because the plan is fully funded...but I find that very hard to beleive, given that we are talking about the City of Scranton (where nothing is fully funded)
...if the city were not making contributions but were required to do so, then that creates a whole host of other issues (for example, Dunmore is considering terminating their DB plan from what I understand) that are above and beyond an oversight board (we are talking DOL and IRS implications)

Now that my curiosity is up, I'll have to do some digging on my end.

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sharilewis


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Ag,

I'm not sure what you mean about a defined benefit plan. My source is not home right now. As far as what the city contributes, it's my understanding that the pension is and was set up to be self sufficient. There was no need for the city to contribute anything. The only time the city needs to contribute is when the pension fund is in the tank and underfunded, which I believe it is now and has been for many years. It was explained to me that although all the money put into the pension is employee money, in the past the city has given the funds to pension investors that lost a lot of the money on bad or risky investments. I believe the city has some say on the board and has appointed people that serve on the board. Once the fund becomes underfunded, the city is, by law, required to contribute to it until the investments gain through a good economy or good investments, thus reducing the city's contributions. (or increasing the city's contributions when it doesn't do well)
The 457b is a totally separate retirement savings account through payroll deduction. The city gives nothing to that. It's all employee money. We put in $75 per check because that's all we can afford. I believe we could invest up to $9000 a year be law, but he doesn't know anyone who could put away that kind of money. It will help when he retires, but it's not going to make us wealthy. The nice part about it is it's tax deferred. What ever you put in it each year, is deducted from your gross pay when filing your taxes. I believe it's taxed when you start drawing from it upon retirement. Like many private employer 401k's, if the city put a percentage match into the account it would end up much better than the regular pension. They could probably do away with or replace the pension at that point.

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sharilewis


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One more thing to clarify the one point you made. The regular pension is based on a percentage of their pay. I believe 4% of their pay is deducted from their check that goes to their pension fund. When they retire they get 50% of their base salary in their pension. If their spouse survives them, they get half of that (25%) until the spouse dies or if the spouse re-marries, the pension stops. Also, people who retired a long time ago get pension increases as the salaries of the current employees rise through raises. The current employees do not get any increases after they retire. They just get 50% of their base pay when they retire and it's fixed at that level and never goes up.

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Agamemnon


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I actually have more information on this, but I've not had a chance to completely sort through it. More to come...

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TaylorPines


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its not the people that retired along time ago, its the ones that were hired along time ago,, they gave up raises to get and keep their current health care and retirement benefits..Quit making it sound like they get more than they deserve.. the employees weren't greedy then, they gave up pay increases that would be in their paycheck everyyear to get those benefits, that these young not very smart employees gave away.

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sharilewis


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Geez Taylor, I don't remember saying anything about people not deserving their benefits. I just stated there is a difference between current people's retirement and people who retired earlier. Is that not correct?

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TaylorPines


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And the current employees knew what they were getting when they were hired

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