Being a newbie here, I may have missed a previous thread on the issue of investigating the Fire Chief.
As always, facts and grievances are never presented. The only evidence is council podium testimony on stories years old, usually givenby hero want-to-be Dave Gervasi. Since theno confidencevote wasorchestrated, the mayor is now meeting with the firemen, purchasing new equipment,andis now establishing SOP's that have never been existent. Progress has and is being made. It now seems Gervasiis calling for a lynching.
I do enjoy the open free discussions and opinions fromposted here. It is amazing that conversations can occur without vulgarity or threats.
Thank you for your kind words. I like it here also.
As to the fire chief situation, I have no dog in the fight here. I am not acquainted with either the Chief or Mr. Gervasi. I have worked as a union employee and also as an nonunion employee. As with everything in life there is a good and bad side to all situations.
I imagine there is a bit of truth mixed in with all the retoric from the union leaders. Does it rise to the level of needing to remove him as chief? I doubt it. On the other hand there is a bit of truth to the claim that the unions have not been treated fairly by this administration. Does it rise to the level that the administration is the devil incarnate? I doubt it
Was the whole "press conference" staged for polical impact? OH YA!! Did that take away from the message? It did for me. Is the whole new fire truck, and new this, and new that for political impact? OH YA!! Did it dim the effect of the event? It did for me.
So basically at this point I believe it has become a political pissing match and frankly I doubt that this crew can work out their differences. I am afraid there is too much water under the bridge at this point to undo the damage. This administration is unlikely to change hands anytime soon. I have yet to see nor have I heard of any candidate that has any chance of running against Doherty and winning at this point. So the unions need to learn how to deal with this current administration, whether they like it or not, this administration will be here for the next few years. So if I were a member of the rank and file I would be looking for new leadership, since the chip on Gervasi, Stulgis, and Krakes shoulders will not allow them to deal with this administration in any positive way.
-- Edited by IHavehadenoughofhaters at 08:28, 2008-03-31
FIRST, I have nothing but respect for our firemen and police officers. If any group deserved our respect, it's them. However, I don't have nearly as much respect for their union leadership teams. I suspect it's not just a coincidence that these issues are being raised after the recent union losses in court over the recovery plan. This one smells like a well orchestrated "Plan B". If these are long-standing problems, then where is the long-standing history of complaints?
SECOND, the Chief serves at the pleasure of the Mayor, period. The days of "Chief As Union Member And Management" are gone under Mayor Doherty...THANK GOD. I also suspect that this is a big, all be it not discussed out-loud issue with the unions. I know the police are not happy with this situation...they seem to want to go back to the days when the chief would violate the contract and then participate in the arbitration award that resulted from his breaking of the contract.
THIRD, the public nature of this lynching is distasteful at best, absurd at worst. How would the union feel about one of it's members being publically berated at a City Council meeting? Probably none to happy. I expect that true professionals would handle personnel matters in a more professional manner.
BOTTOM LINE...yet another example of union leaders acting out a stereo-typical "union thug" role. These union leaders could learn something from the leadership of the local Catholic School Teachers union, who are handling a very messy dispute with the diocese in an exceptionally professional manner.
-- Edited by Agamemnon at 18:45, 2008-03-27
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Free Speech does't require a multi-paragrah disclaimer Mr. Pilchesky.
BOTTOM LINE...yet another example of union leaders acting out a stereo-typical "union thug" role. These union leaders could learn something from the leadership of the local Catholic School Teachers union, who are handling a very messy dispute with the diocese in an exceptionally professional manner.
I'm a product of public schools, my wife is a product of public schools, and my kid is working his way through public schools. This whole Catholic School Teachers Union thing is really of very little consequence to me. I have to ask you though, how does calling "sick-outs" with very little advanced notice--at great inconvenience to working parents and with total disregard for the children they are charged with teaching and denying them their right to an education which has already been purchased (sometimes with a great deal of sacrifice on the parent's part)--translate into "exceptionally professional" behavior?
Simple...that union isn't demonizing Bishop Martino, unlike what the police and fire department unions routinely do to Mayor Doherty. They are factually stating that his (Bishop Martino's) position is wrong, backing that statement up with facts (about the Catholic Church's position on unions), and using the legal means available to them to make their case. I've heard the president of SDACT state that they pray for Bishop Martino...I don't think "prayer" is what comes out of the lips of Gervasi, Stulgis, et all when they talk about Chris Doherty.
As for the tactic of sick-outs, while I don't necessarily agree with it (for the reasons you note), I can see where some would view it as being a measured response to the actions of Bishop Martino. Yes, the parents purchased (or are purchasing....as many parents pay via installment) the education for their children, but in the end those children will still get the mandated number of instructional days for the year.
For the record, I attended public schools through grade 8 and a Catholic high school, so I've seen both sides, if you will, of the educational spectrum. By way of disclosure, my wife is a public school teacher in Scranton & all of my children have attended or are attending public schools. I don't view Catholic schools as being better...or worse...than public schools. They are, simply put, different. I will say this though...Catholic school teachers work as hard, if not harder then their public school counterparts for far less pay and less generous benefits, even after 20+ years of union affiliation in the high schools. Greed or a lust for power doesn't seem to be what motivates them...which is in stark contrast to the police and fire department union heads.
-- Edited by Agamemnon at 22:55, 2008-03-27
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Free Speech does't require a multi-paragrah disclaimer Mr. Pilchesky.
Not to defend the Bishop, but nothing he's doing is interrupting the educational process or disrupting families, is it? That's all at the feet of the teachers, and I guess I just don't see that as being necessarily professional. I'd feel the exact same way if it were public school teachers, and probably moreso since it would directly impact me as a working parent.
It might all work out in the end, but still, contingency plans still have to be made with regards to vacations, afterschool care, babysitters, and work schedules. The students and families are unfairly being used as pawns here, and it looks miserable for the teachers, IMO.
The unions will never get what they want until they unload the ineffective leaders they've chosen to represent them. Dave Gervasi is probably the worst leader they've EVER had. Somebody ought to inform the union rank and file that their president actually has to TALK to the administration in order to get anywhere.
As for the policemen, how about getting a union president that actually works! Stulgis has a disability because of a hurt finger? I don't know about anyone else, but my death and dismemberment insurance only pays 5 grand for a finger....and that's if I actually lost it.
"Not to defend the Bishop, but nothing he's doing is interrupting the educational process or disrupting families, is it?"
I understand your point, but I guess I look at it differently. For over 20 years, these teachers had contracts with the Diocese that were honored through three different Bishops (McCormick, O'Connor & Timlin). The contracts didn't provide for great raises or anything like that, but never the less there were contracts. Bishop Martino comes along, and in what I think was a four sentence letter said "we are not recognizing you anymore". Now I'm not a big fan of unions, but even I think that's grossly inappropriate. So from what I see, it was the Bishop who made a unilateral decision, without consultation, to simply change the rules. SDACT did nothing to bring this on; all they wanted was the status quo. Anyway, I still applaud the union for being civil and, while others may disagree, respectful/professional in how they have handled their dissent.
As for the public school teachers in Scranton, there is a more than good chance that there will be a strike this year. Union President Rosemary Boland seems to be out for blood. Since my wife is a member of the SFT I've actually read the contract, and outside of healthcare (I know, that's a big "outside of"; the current SFT contract has healthcare coverage provisions that are horrible; my coverage is far better than my wife's) the contract is very fair with regards to wages and working conditions. This will not end well.
-- Edited by Agamemnon at 06:53, 2008-03-28
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Free Speech does't require a multi-paragrah disclaimer Mr. Pilchesky.
Ah, former officer and FOP President Stulgis...funny, but everytime I've seen her in council chambers she doesn't look disabled at all. Now granted I haven't had a great view of her fingers (make that finger, as only one was injured), but never the less I've always wondered what about that injury would prevent her from, for example, working at a desk job.
Anyway 5150, point well made & I agree completely. The current union officers are still time-warping back to the days of Jimmy Connors, where they ruled the roost with things like a drug-squad that worked bankers hours (because we know that drug crimes only happen Monday-Friday, 9am to 5pm). Far be it for Mayor Doherty to actually want to be management. That's the real issue here....they want to go back to when they were in charge, which isn't happening under Doherty.
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Free Speech does't require a multi-paragrah disclaimer Mr. Pilchesky.
In light of these recent procedures, I have to question this so called brotherhood of firemen. All firemen are brothers? I would never want to be a brother in a so called fraternity that would turn its back on one of its own. Chief Davis has been around long before these so called officers got a job. Now they turn their back on one of their own out of greed and politics. Again, these are not the men that make this country free. Heroes do not have to call themselves brave at a podium. The brave stand silently on the front line allowing you to make such exaggerated comments and call it freedom of speech!
The firemen know that they have a good deal going in Scranton; that's why virtually none ever leave despite being "oppressed" by Mayor Doherty. Think about it...if things were so bad under the Mayor, then why not just leave? I do respect the work that these public servants do, but let's cut to the chase here: what pisses them off so much is that Mayor Doherty actually wants to be in charge. Novel ideal. Union leaders are desperate to try and hold on to what little power they have left and maybe recapture some of what they lost. One needs to look no futher than the Mayor's instantance on being able to make manpower decisions. I'll say this at the risk of offending people, but I'll say it anyway: How many of the firemen in Scranton have second jobs that have been/would be negatively impacted by a change in shifts, etc.? My employer dictates when (and actually where...they could insist, for exmple, that I relocate) I work, so it shouldn't be any different for public servants.
In the end, this is about naked exercise of power and control, period. Mayor Doherty dared to actually lead as Mayor, and the people who used to be in charge, the municipal unions, hate it.
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Free Speech does't require a multi-paragrah disclaimer Mr. Pilchesky.
A lust for power? How about simply a lust to be treated fairly? Firemen in this city makequite a bit less here in Scranton than they do in Bethlehem, PA, the city that Mayor Doherty always makes comparisons to.
Executives may be able to relocate and find a more lucrative job, moving up the corporate ladder, but if a fireman leaves a job in one town he starts at the bottom rung (pun definitely intended) in the next town. Many firemen, if forced to leave Scranton Fire Department in search of better wages, will lose seniority, rank,and their pensions, since the antiquated pension system in SFD only vests after 25 years.
No firemen want to leave; however,they do want safe working conditions, proper equipment, and a living wage.
I notice you didn't mentionpolice leaving because of the oppresive conditions, because they have been, for the State Police and other municipalities.
"In the end, this is about naked exercise of power and control, period. Mayor Doherty dared to actually lead as Mayor, and the people who used to be in charge, the municipal unions, hate it."
Six plus years without even a cost of livingraise, shoddy equipment andfew (if any) qualified leaders, yeah, I'd say the Mayor is exercising power and control.
I noticed you didn't mention the situation with the fire chief which what this thread is about. Tell us how that political foot stomping by Gervasi and crew helped the fireman. It didn't impress me that they tore into one of their "brothers" in public. The timing was very suspect. The fact that Gervasi admittedthat many of the complaints predated Chief Davis (not the he admitted that during the "press conference" only later after being called on it) The fact that many of the compliants have existed foryears without a complaint, now all of a sudden they are the worst things to be happening. Please there are no heroes or devils in this situation. All of this is a union/management pissing match and nothing more.
A lust for power? How about simply a lust to be treated fairly? So just what is fairly? Is that one of the requests in the new contract? Firemen in this city make quite a bit less here in Scranton than they do in Bethlehem, PA, SO?the city that Mayor Doherty always makes comparisons to.
Executives may be able to relocate and find a more lucrative job, moving up the corporate ladder, but if a fireman leaves a job in one town he starts at the bottom rung (pun definitely intended) in the next town. Many firemen, if forced to leave Scranton Fire Department in search of better wages, will lose seniority, rank, and their pensions, since the antiquated pension system in SFD only vests after 25 years. I don't know that there are any "executives" these days that have a pension to lose. As for seniority and rank, I suppose that all comes with a union contract, another thing that "executives" do not have. By the way, I am no executive (whatever that is) but I have been working without a contract for almost thirty years and can't understand when I hear people speak out that they are working without a contract and expect some sort of sympathy from me. No firemen want to leave; however, they do want safe working equipment, and a living wage Please explain to the families of Scranton who average 33K/year FAMILY income just what a living wage is and remember that these are "In the end, this is about naked exercise of power and control, period. Mayor Doherty dared to actually lead as Mayor, and the people who used to be in charge, the municipal unions, hate it."
Six plus years withouteven a cost of living raise, Isn't this the time that the contract has been in negotiation for raises AND retroactive raises? Are you saying the fire dept. has already negotiated away any retroactive raises?
shoddy equipment and few (if any) qualified leaders, yeah, I'd say the Mayor is exercising power and control.
To answer your question about how the "political foot stomping" by Gervasi has helped his brother firemen, you need only read the original post in this thread from "Puzzler" who wrote, "Since the no confidence vote was orchestrated, the mayor is now meeting with the firemen, purchasing new equipment,and is now establishing SOP's that have never been existent. Progress has and is being made."
The Chief, IMHO, was a good fireman when he was still a member of the rank and file. However, being a good worker doesn't always translate into being a good leader. Like it or not, the Chief is here for the long haul, and represents the administration, not the union. Was the press conference a political move? Absolutely. But as long as the mayor continues to blame municipal unions for the financial woes of the city, I see this type of thing happening more frequently.
BTW,can anyone explain to me why, no matter how many timesI proofreadmy posts, they appear with words crammed togetherafter I submit them? I've tried different fonts to no avail.
Balko...One of the great things about this board is that we can discuss, debate, disagree and always keep it civil. In that spirit, I've posted a few thoughts of my own in response to yours (in dark red bold) -
A lust for power? How about simply a lust to be treated fairly? [Fairly as defined the firemen themselves? That's a loaded term. I think that treating me fairly at work would constitue getting an automatic 3.5% increase ever year; in the world of most workers, including me, that doesn't happen.] Firemen in this city makequite a bit less here in Scranton than they do in Bethlehem, PA, the city that Mayor Doherty always makes comparisons to. [Fair enough, but let's be honest here...are there more firemen per capita in Bethlehem or less? (Ibelieve that the answer is less.) If there are less per capita, then Bethlehem could certainly pay more; also, what are the benefit costs like? This isn't as simple as "they make more than us".]
Executives may be able to relocate and find a more lucrative job, moving up the corporate ladder, but if a fireman leaves a job in one town he starts at the bottom rung (pun definitely intended) in the next town. [I would never compare a fireman to an executive, as firemen really earn their pay. I am not an executive with my company, and if I had to relocate, then I most likely would be subject to the possibility of earning less. Common theme here: what makes the firemen so special as far as employment rules goes?] Many firemen, if forced to leave Scranton Fire Department in search of better wages, will lose seniority, rank,and their pensions, since the antiquated pension system in SFD only vests after 25 years. [Firemen choose to work in a system that is seniority based, not skill or ability based. The benefit to that is equal treatment; the drawback is that what you describe. If you want to blame anyone for the situation you describe, then it's the entire unionization of public safety professionals that's really the problem. Put another way, you can't crow about the benefits of unionization but then cry over the drawbacks.]
No firemen want to leave; however,they do want safe working conditions, proper equipment, and a living wage. [I agree that they should have all of these; that's why I've said repeatedly on this board that Mayor Doherty should settle these contracts.]
I notice you didn't mentionpolice leaving because of the oppresive conditions, because they have been, for the State Police and other municipalities. [The police have been, but then again they don't always have the benefit of running side-jobs like the firemen do; a major point I was trying to make was that the firemen have a unique employment arrangement with benefits that other workers do not enjoy. The notion that they are "oppressed" is hard to swallow.]
"In the end, this is about naked exercise of power and control, period. Mayor Doherty dared to actually lead as Mayor, and the people who used to be in charge, the municipal unions, hate it."
Six plus years without even a cost of livingraise, shoddy equipment andfew (if any) qualified leaders, yeah, I'd say the Mayor is exercising power and control.
[Not a raise? Perhaps you should explain to the rest of the board what Longevity Pay is. Again, the union leaders cry at the podium, all be it for effect, but it's kind of funny that they never mention the fact that some members do get an increase in pay due to the aforementioned Longevity Pay clause. Yes, I know it doesn't apply to everyone, but it's not a coincidence that "Nelson",. Mr Gervasi, Ms Stulgis never seem to mention that clause when they are poor-mouthing at council meetings. Why is that? Perhaps they are simply being selective with the facts...a charge that they themselves make against Mayor Doherty.
Lastly, Mayor Doherty is no saint in all of this; he should have established a better relationship with the unions from day one. However Balko, it takes two to tango here. One gets the impression that the union leaders decided from day one to fight the Mayor on every front. I agree that some things the Mayor has done are worthy of fighting...for example, his stupid abandomment of the healthcare cost containment provisions...but some of what he has done that the unions has balked against...such as having deparment leaders who are not also in the unions...makes so much sense that you find it hard to belive that it wasn't implemented before.
If you want a black and white world of heroes and villians, then I suggest reading comic book or watching an episode of Star Trek. In the world of employment disputes there are few heroes, fewer real villians and lots of gray shades.]
-- Edited by Agamemnon at 20:48, 2008-03-31
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Free Speech does't require a multi-paragrah disclaimer Mr. Pilchesky.
::::::::::BTW,can anyone explain to me why, no matter how many timesI proofreadmy posts, they appear with words crammed togetherafter I submit them? I've tried different fonts to no avail.::::::::
We don't know either :( The only reason I don't seem to have the same problem is I can edit my post after I am done. Mine looks like that before I edit also.
-- Edited by IHavehadenoughofhaters at 20:42, 2008-03-31
Balko, IHave...I've never had that problem on this board, so I'm not going to be of much help. Not sure this matters much, but I am using Firefox as my browser, and I've never used Internet Explorer (to post here).
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Free Speech does't require a multi-paragrah disclaimer Mr. Pilchesky.
To Lord Chesterfield, If I copy and paste the entire post this will get very lengthy. Hopefully, L.C. will bear with me and scroll back to understand the context of my replies. (His post in blue, My responses are in black)
"So just what is fairly? Is that one of the requests in the new contract? "
I assume that is rhetorical. "SO?" I included the comparison because Mayor Doherty always uses the same comparison.
"I don't know that there are any "executives" these days that have a pension to lose. As for seniority and rank, I suppose that all comes with a union contract, another thing that "executives" do not have. By the way, I am no executive (whatever that is) but I have been working without a contract for almost thirty years and can't understand when I hear people speak out that they are working without a contract and expect some sort of sympathy from me." We're starting to go off on a tangent here. What Agamemnon was talking about, was if the firemen feel things are so bad, they could go elsewhere. A fireman is usually thought of as a semi-skilled worker, and that "skill" is fighting fires. If they choose to leave the job, it's a good assumption they have no other skill or education to find employment elsewhere. Almost the only place they could find work againis another municipality. A mechanic can find work at various dealerships or garages in this town or others.The same goes for constructionworkers, accountants, etc. The double edged sword is firemen don't get wage increases based on merit, they have a contract, Working without one means no wage increases. IfI didn't have a raise in over 6 years, I'd be looking for a job elsewhere.The reason the firemen don't I believe I just explained. (I don't think they are looking for sympathy, either. The views they express, as I understand it, are in response to this very political battle. "Isn't this the time that the contract has been in negotiation for raises AND retroactive raises? Are you saying the fire dept. has already negotiated away any retroactive raises?" The point here sir, is there have been no negotiations. TheMayor has not offered the firemen any contract...hence the binding arbitration, which (by law) is the only recourse that unionized municipal employees have.
I don't know the actual terms of the SFD or the Bethlehem FD contracts. I do know wages are higher in Bethlehem. In all fairness, I think comparisons of any city versus another is apples an oranges anyway. There is no way to balance things like cost of living, crime rate, wages, benefits, housing, etc. The idea that 2 less holidays is equal to 20 cents more an hour, or paying more for health care but getting a uniform allowance are very subjective comparisons. As I mentioned before, I only mentioned Bethlehem, because I have heard Mayor Doherty make the comparison before.
The "Unionized employee" issue can be debated here ad naseum. Being in a union actually punishes the hard worker. There are no raises based on merit; on the contrary, the worker who does little to nothing reaps the same rewards as the one who overachieves. I have worked in both union and non-union occupations, and by and large union jobs are better paying, but have little chance for advancement.
As for longevity pay, I will explain it as best I know it. A unionized employee in Scranton receives a 2% salary increase after one year of service. Every two years thereafter, they receive an additional 1% increase. After five years, a worker will be making 4% more money than a newly hired employee makes. Longevity caps out at 10%. (It takes 19 years to "max out") It may seem like workers are benefitting for simply "showing up", but it is an incentive for workers to stay here rather than seek emploment elsewhere.
If I were a gambling man, I would agree the unions have been against the Mayor since before he was sworn into office. I will not deny they have absolutely opposed everything the mayor proposed that does not benefit them. That is standard union practice. I also agree Mayor Doherty should have realized this, and instead of attempting to fight every issue, he should have chosen the battles to fight. We (as taxpayers) bear the burden of the unions fight against the Mayor, and vice versa.
Finally, I have never enjoyed Star Trek or comic books. In high school I enjoyed classics such as the Iliad, the Odyssey or other Greek mythology. Sadly, I now have little time for pleasant fiction, and find myself ever challenged by reality which evolves daily, but is much less interesting.
Just curious, as you mentioned that you've worked in both union and non-union jobs. Which did you prefer and why? I've never worked for a union and I most likely never will, as I've always wanted to be accountable for my own advancement, and not simply given something because I showed up for "x" number of years (regardless of my performance). Besides, I am a manager for my employer, which means in some circles that I am oppressively evil.
Thanks for the explanation for longevity pay. Curious, in that it incents workers to stay on, but you've stated that at least for firemen (although not true for police) leaving is almost never heard of...so why then the incentive to stay for firemen that will probably not leave anyway? Anyway, I don't bemoan the police and firemen for the benefits they have fairly negotiated...I just wish they would stop with the demonizing and personal attacks. They only hurt themselves when they do that...they appear as unprofessional thugs and cry-babies who want benefits (such as the ability to get a disability pension for injuring a finger) that the average worker rightfully never gets.
Finally, I am a big fan of Star Trek, but I haven't read a comic book in 30 years. Like you, I have far too little time for fiction. I am a big fan of Greek mythology though.
-- Edited by Agamemnon at 06:42, 2008-04-01
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Free Speech does't require a multi-paragrah disclaimer Mr. Pilchesky.
. Sadly, I now have little time for pleasant fiction, and find myself ever challenged by reality which evolves daily, but is much less interesting.
